———-

Why do you make reference to a “Skopjan policy” then misrepresent yourself as a “US/Mac Friend”.

Modern Macedonians have as much right as anyone else in the region to claim the ancient Macedonians.

The so-called “Slavic-speaking” Macedonians can be traced back to the mid-500s AD - in Macedonia. That’s 1500 years in the land. Alexander the Great may have died in the 4th century BC, but the rest of the Macedonians didn’t.

Nor did the nameless “Slavs” exterminate all the indigenous populations they found in the area. They assimilated them, or vice versa, with a Slavic language dominating.

On the other hand, Aegean Macedonia, only captured by Greece through an act of war in 1913, was ethnically cleansed, then repopulated by various Christian groups from Asia Minor and the Black Sea.

A full 50% and probably more, of today’s “Greeks” living in Aegean Macedonia are foreigners having only arrived or been transplanted there in the last 80 years. How do these people have a greater claim, nay, a monopoly, on Alexander the Great, and the Macedonians of 1500 years are merely “Slavs”?

What utter nonsense. I’m not aware of any reputable scholar who claims that today’s Greeks are the descendants of Alexander the Great.

Who would report it? Event organizers noted Greek media boycotts Macedonian events. It would be best to verify this with eyewitnesses rather than insinuate it’s untrue.

———-

@A deluded Albanian: “Instead the fact that the police apprehended all but 3 of the Chrissi Avgi members was reported. And the Chrissi Avgi site complains about the fact that they were made to get on their knees to be searched for weapons by the police. No weapons were found and none of the people at the press conference has sued them yet - with the videos it will be a slum dunk.”

Here is a slightly updated video of the incident. In the video you can see the fascists strolling past Greek police as they leave the building. Police barely took notice of them, let alone “apprehended” them. Are there any new pictures for “optics”?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L40kQfnFuik

If anyone in attendance sues these Xrisi Avgi thugs their lives will probably be turned into a living hell, as Karakasidou’s was.

———-

@A deluded Albanian: “Again one fails to see what the government has to gain from this negative publicity.”

Is this a straw man? Since when has the Greek government concerned itself with the negative repercussions of its racist behaviour?

Just this year Gay McDougall of the United Nations asked the Greek government to stop its policy of denying the existence of minorities. A week hadn’t passed after McDougall’s report before the Greek foreign minister made a visit to Voden in Aegean Macedonia to declare there were no ethnic minorities in Greece.

Greece couldn’t care less, it knows the European Union has endless tolerance for Greece’s extreme racism.

———-

@A deluded Albanian: “The police should have been pre-posted this time around (even if this would have been used as an excuse to claim intimidation) but at least I have yet to hear about Vinozhito complaining that they asked for police protection and were refused.”

I can’t speak for the event organizers as I wasn’t there, but I don’t believe they were looking for this provocation. To be honest, if I were throwing a book launch in the middle of Athens, adjacent to the foreign ministry surrounded by police, I wouldn’t book a police presence either.

Should they expect Greek fascists to show up when they promote their cookbook too? Not much breathing room there for freedom of expression.

———-

@A deluded Albanian: “BTW the police guard of the MFA cannot by regulations leave the premises - only ask for reinforcements.”

Put it into context, where else in the Western World could a gaggle of large fascists, dressed in black clothing and helmets walk by the police security of the foreign ministry, enter the building behind them, cause an incident, and then stroll off again past the police. Your claim beggars belief.

Victor Friedman stated in his interview the only police he saw were the ones outside. Where were the reinforcements, where was anyone? The cops were either sleeping on the job, or told to lay low.

———-

@A deluded Albanian: e) “Karakasidou was living in the USA while working on her thesis as a US university pursuing an academic career in the USA. I fail to see how she was driven out”

She was driven out because she didn’t want to take the abuse anymore. People hounding her, calling her a traitor, bragging they would rape her, etc. She has lain low since but she is a much wiser woman now, especially about Macedonians and minorities in general.

Victor Friedman strikes me as much wiser now too - and he was already very wise to begin with. I understand this site is run by one of Victor’s students - they are very lucky indeed.

———-

@A deluded Albanian: “Stigmatized? Sure their opinions are presented as anti-greek by most media. But silenced?”

The only person I know who can withstand the intense stigmatization - and endless law suits - thrown at activists and scholars, is Panayote Dimitras, who is reviled in the country. He is not silenced, but that’s a testament to his integrity, not of the Greek state’s tolerance. Most academics who want to speak out do so once then get their wings clipped.

———-

@A deluded Albanian:4) “Dambeni was in the Kastoria prefecture in the Macedonian part of Greece.”

What do you mean Karadza’s village “was” in the Kostur prefecture? Where is it now?

@A deluded Albanian: “The Greek state has not prevented the publication of “The Greek anti-macedonian struggle” by Dimitri Lithoxoou, a founding member of Vinozhito, which as a book is far more provocative in how it challenges Greek positions than any dictionary.”

Where were the fascists for Lithoxoou - if his book was “far more provocative,” why didn’t they show up? A dictionary isn’t “provocative”, you’d have to fit yourself through the eye of a needle to pretend it is.

———-

@A deluded Albanian: “Oh and Uzunovski - in case you think that the leftists of indymedia are in on it, here’s what your pal Abecedar from your forum writes on his blog: After the attack of the rotten golden eggs (a pun on the name of the nazis) the event continued normally.”

I can’t vouch for which information is correct, I wasn’t there nor were you. I posted the information that was released. Again, it’s best to check with witnesses rather than relying on secondary sources.

———-

@A deluded Albanian: “I realize that but in all fairness you could have pointed out that your advisor held Greece and Greeks in extremely low regard well before this incident.”

Don’t pretend to be naive. Victor Friedman is a very intelligent man. Why do you think he might hold Greece in low regard?

Do you think it might have anything to do with Greek society’s virulent anti-Semitism and its extreme intolerance and racism? I too hold Greece in low regard, but I don’t do it out of racism I do it based on Greece’s behaviour.

———-

@A deluded Albanian: “One final piece of information for all interested readers - Uzunovski you’re going to love this and I’m surprised the video has not surfaced yet: Kiriaki Malama and Fani Toupalgiki have shot a 30 minute documentary about Vasko Karatza …”

That’s good to know but how does that change the facts of this incident, or the extremely racist behaviour endured by the ethnic Macedonians in Greece - who officially don’t exist and must be kept invisible as they are forcibly assimilated?

Do you think Ouranio Toxo might be able to get the same kind of coverage - and not in the usual “they are traitors, spies for skopia” kind of way?

Deluded Albanian, if you’re going to address me by my formal name, then put yours out there as well. You can use your Arvanite name, if you can remember it, or your new Greek name.

http://www.unet.com.mk/ancient-macedonians/

Vasil Iljov’s paleographic and paleolinguistic research reveals signs on rocks which are actual letters of an old proto Slav phonetic alphabet that can be deciphered using today’s standardised Macedonian language. Acc. to Iljov, not one but two phonetic alphabets have been discovered. One was known as the common alphabet used by the general public and the other was known as the secret alphabet used for religious and ceremonial purposes.

Athens started the anti-macedonian struggle. Provoking reaction. Now that’s even talked about the slightest possibility of connection of contemporary Macedonian to ancient Macedonian. A notion unimaginable just 15 years ago.

The good thing is all those claims will go through scientific scrutiny and we’ll get the answers. The only problem is why someone tries to connect the history with the right of the individual to self-declare itself…

Interesting, short discussion can be found here:
http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/macedonia-from-bad-to-worse/

(How can you spot an Athenian here? He never ever uses the word Macedonian to describe my language or nation. Never :)

From the Greek comments one would think that Greece is a democratic country, even though only one TV station decided to air the pre-election material of Vinozhito, and only at 6 AM. The others declined, saying that political commercials in another language are not allowed by law. Of course, there’s nothing in the law where this is mentioned and at the same time the parties of the Turkish minority is using Turkish in their commercials. But still, we appreciate that they acknowledge that Macedonian is a separate language, and not a so-called “idiom” that they’ve claimed so far.

Further examples of the fascism in the greek media: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuGPZM6jVpk&feature=channel_page

Look how the Greek media attacks a Macedonian priest by saying that he is a homosexual and a spy and that the police is coming to arrest him.

Actually, here is a link of a youtube channel that is full of examples like these, all taken from various TV stations over the years. Unfortunately, most have Macedonian subtitles, but I think you’ll understand what is being said.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=televizijasonce&view=videos

And to top it off with extracts from Victor Friedman’s interview which we are all familiar with. http://www.balkanalysis.com/2008/12/14/victor-friedman-on-macedonia-the-balkanalysiscom-interview/

“The generation that suffered during the Greek Civil War (1946-49) however, is still alive. The ones who are still alive often do not want to tell their stories because they are afraid or the memories are too painful. Even for curious foreigners, if you go to Greece to do research on Macedonian, you run the risk that the police will take your tapes, destroy them, and kick you out for expressing an interest in what is still a taboo topic for them.

CD: Really! Are there some examples?

VF: Yes, and it happened to a colleague of mine who was doing dissertation research in a village whose name I will omit to protect the inhabitants.

CD: aha, the village of… near Kastoria?

VF: Yes, and precisely for this reason it is one of the most interesting Macedonian dialects, because it is the most southwestern Macedonian dialect. It is transitional between eastern and western types of Macedonian. And the Greek police confiscated the tapes of this linguist and interfered with his research. However, he did finish his dissertation on this dialect. In fact, in his introduction, he made a point of thanking the Greek police for teaching him to always keep backup tapes!

CD: Ha! So with all of this intimidation, not to mention the journalist arrests we saw recently, what are the Greeks so afraid of?

VF: They‚Äôre incredibly insecure. No, they‚Äôre not just insecure. They have a linguistic ideology that insists on wiping out all other languages. This is an old ideology. It is the origins of the term barbarian. Think about it.”

And a 1994 human rights watch report. - http://books.google.com/books?id=JxCnAHCCuxYC&pg=PA4&dq=national+geographic+macedonia&as_brr=1&ei=zKHpSajcK5aQyAT47P2nDg#PPP7,M1

Prof. Friedman has attacked the pseudoscience of tracing Modern (Slavic) Macedonian to Ancient Macedonian and the government policy of which it makes a part at more than one public talk. That he has not been quoted on this in the Macedonian press is not an indication that he holds the views of the Buchephalists in anything but contempt, nor is it an indication that he has not engaged the issue.

As for an article, I’m not aware of a specific linguistic article he’s written about this, but that’s the thing: it is a trivial observation that Macedonian is a Slavic language. He hasn’t written an article about it because it’s an utterly banal statement, appropriate as one sentence in the introduction of a real paper, not as a subject for a whole article in of itself. The Buchephalist obsession with tracing Modern Macedonian to Ancient Macedonian is so divorced from modern linguistics that it’s difficult to even engage with their arguments. It would be like engaging with someone who fervently believes the Earth is flat in a 2009 issue of a major geology journal: where do you begin?

Unfortunately, what is accepted as completely uncontroversial in the outside world is treated as a point of some sort of debate at MANU, and the people advocating Buchephalism have very powerful connections. This is something that legitimate, scholarly linguists in Macedonia always have to deal with. The battle against this is something Prof. Friedman and his colleagues continue to fight, often internally, often in the case of many of his Macedonian linguist colleagues at significant risk to their careers. I do not have citations for this, just personal experience with the people involved.

I’m happy we agree (along with most academic historians!) about the ridiculousness of the current Skopjan policy of promoting official Alexanderism. This amounts to cultural theft, and is plenty provocative, obviously. (The Greeks feel the same about Alexanderism as they feel about the Elgin (/Parthenon) marbles being appropriated by Lord Elgin and displayed in the British Museum. Read Christopher Hitchens’s book if you want to know more about that case.) But my point is, it’s easy to walk into a Greek bookstore and find books that talk at great length about the evils of past Greek govt policy, current policy, the Macedonian language, and the minority. Written by Greeks, published in Greek, sold and bought by Greeks. And while I understand that on a personal level, some Macedonians may admit that Alexanderism is crazy (which is entirely official and state-funded), I would really love to see a Macedonian writing in Macedonian (in a newspaper or a book) detailing how the ancient Macedonians were a tribe of Hellenes, that ancient Macedonian is at farthest remove an aunt of Attic (and possibly just a sister), historically speaking, etc. In the current political climate in Skopje, making such (unremarkable elsewhere) statements of fact would, it seems to me, be courageous on a par with the Greeks who take their country to task for its misguidedness (and like Chomsky’s critiques of US foreign policy: as Chomsky has written repeatedly, we bear more responsibility for our own actions and of those whom we can influence than for remote actors’, and hence it behooves us to begin our criticism close to home–there was nothing wrong with criticizing the horrible human rights’ abuses of the old Soviet Union [and there were plenty of US academics to do it], but it takes a lot more courage to speak up against policies you can more directly influence). So: easy task: prove me wrong. Show me that there are courageous Macedonian academics like some of the Greek academics speaking out. Better yet: show me a quote from Victor Friedman where he speaks out against this Alexanderism. Given his stature in Macedonian circles, one article of his on the topic would have much more influence than three dozen such articles written by Greeks, random Brits, Americans, etc (see the letter to Obama here http://vardaraxios.wordpress.com/2009/05/ for example). Instead, Friedman has written in vague terms about the provenance of the ancient language (while he knows full well what his colleague Eric Hamp thinks about it), instead of clearly stating what the linguistics shows (it was part of a closely related group of Hellenic language varieties: just how to draw the Stammbaum is all that’s really debated, and that not even that much, since there’s not enough material to have a good debate about).

On a related note: the annual conference on Greek linguistics held by the Greek linguistics dept at the Univ of Thessaloniki last month invited Suzanne Romaine (Oxford) to give one of the plenary lectures, which was very well attended. She spoke at length about linguistic human rights, minority language rights, etc, with extensive documentation and some detailed case studies–case studies of minorities in southern Africa! She didn’t mention *once* the minority languages in Greece or their situation (though she’s well aware of them). That’s just cowardice. And in fact in the too brief question period (she spoke too long), all the questions were in fact about minority languages (Romani, Vlach, Macedonian)–the Greeks had invited her here to hear what she had to say about the application of her knowledge to the situation here, and wanted to hear about it.

http://www1.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=1271582&publDate=22/5/2002

Taso was one of the infamous “Akronafplia 27″ (an interesting side story of WWII) which included among others the Vlach Andreas Tzimas (central figure of the resistance and the civil war) and Andreas Tsipas (the only general secretary of the Communist Party of Greece from the minority - born in Patele/Agios Panteleimon).