neo-nazi attack on macedonian dictionary promotion in greece

Hey Eric, I’ve found the video link on Youtube showing the provocation and the attack. Unfortunately, when these fascists get violent, the camera had been turned over and shows only the ceiling. But even if you don’t understand Greek, it’s hatespeech and the guys are constantly shouting and arguing.
It’s a shame for Greece, especially before the start of teh European Elections:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hVZYz_gH5k

I’m spreading the word, too:

http://germanecvoskopje.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/greek-neo-nazi-attack/

Thankyou Polysemic for translating this article for English speakers. Macedonian news portal A1 has questioned a few ‘Eurocrats’ in Macedonia, whose response has been to defend Greece. This incident demonstrates the true face of Greece. Having illegally obtained half of Macedonia in the Balkan wars 1913, they have not earned the spiritual right to claim Macedonia in any way, shape or form! On the contrary, their theft has marked Greek consciousness with a malignant growth that they’ve yet to come to terms with. Unfortunately, Macedonians are their favorite scapegoats.

If the EU were serious it would moderate Greece’s racism. Unfortunately, the European Union tolerates and tacitly promotes the persecution of minorities in Greece. Greece even gloats about the EU’s connivance.

It’s a great shame really that the EU helps Greece with its persecution of minorities, and this is a story that needs to become much more widely known.

Thank you polysemic for translating Victor Friedman’s interview into English.

FYI:

a) Chrissi Avgi (Χρυσή Αυγή) is most certainly not associated with LAOS - it in fact constantly attacks it as they draw from the same pool of votes (LAOS has a wider ideological base being a far right populist party that even includes some former communists). They are only related insofar as they exchange members (usually in a one way fashion LAOS -> Chrissi Avgi). They are both extremist, but LAOS has had to moderate its extremism the moment it got close to getting in parliament.
b) The guards at the MFA cannot leave the premises of the building. The riot squad (MAT/MEA) are used to handle Chrissi Avgi or far left groups and they should have been posted at the door before the press conference started as in the cases of the Abecedar press conferences in Athens and Thessaloniki a few years ago. In those cases and many others they prevented the far right from entering. Did Vinozhito ask for police protection this time round? Even if it did not the police should have sent the MAT/MEA preventively anyway though I’m sure your advisor would then be claiming that the police presence intimidated the public from partaking in the press conference (an argument that has been used by Vinozhito in the past).
c) That said feel free to see complicity at the higher end instead of the usual greek state incompetence. Of course exactly what would the Greek government gain by this negative publicity remains to be explained by your sharp analytical skills. Vinozhito has yet to top 10k votes in the least polarized elections of all (Euroelections) and far worse in terms of their claims against Greece - after all this is a dictionary - books have been published (by independent publishing houses as opposed to the party press as was in this case) on the subject by party members (Lithoxoou) or sympathizers (Nakratzas, Kostopoulos etc.).
d) Her name is Riki Van Boeschoten - and the evil Greek state hired her to teach in a plum position at the University of Thessaly after she had already conducted research on the extend of the use of the local non-Greek languages in the region of Florina and Aridhea. Suffice to say her findings, choice of words and arguments run counter to official Greek policy. Moreover the monstrous Greek state continued having her on the payroll after she kept on with her research attacking Greek policy on the issue of the remaining political refugees. Obviously in addition to being evil Greeks are also incompetent.
e) And if you cared to be truthful your advisor has said pretty much the same things about Greece before this incident (and not only in the Deliso interview). The inference that it was this event that made him proclaim that is misleading to say the least.
f) The only newspaper with a name close to the one you mention is “Proto Thema” (Πρώτο Θέμα) which has been attacking Vinozhito through its pages alleging separatism for a very long time now. It appears that even nationalist Greeks can be opposed to the fascist tactics of Chrissi Avgi. I’m sure the Vinozhito activists enjoyed the irony.

For the last poster: are you talking about Greek-Macedonian dictionary?

I’m talking about the disgraceful events surrounding the press conference announcing (several months after the effect) the printing of said dictionary. And I provided several factual corrections or additions. Of course you can let your imagination run wild.

I see, according to you Chrissi Avgi is not associated with LAOS, they just share a far right-wing ideology, they are supported by the same fascist electorate and they exchange members.

Please stop making excuses for the Greek police. When you have twenty fascists invading a small book launch next door to the Foreign Ministry the police shouldn’t be sitting outside masturbating. Even worse, when participants of the book launch refused to be intimidated it was the police who persuaded them to go – informing them that yet another group of Greek fascists was on its way to disrupt their activities.

What do the police in Greece get paid to do? The Keystone Cops would have done a better job than the Greek police in Athens. But that’s hardly a secret; Greek police are legendarily sympathetic to racists and fascists.

As for complicity with the Greek government, you can deny it all you like but it’s so obvious it’s laughable. The Chryssi Avghi fascists show up on cue to intimidate minorities – as they always do. Greek police wait outside playing tiddlywinks with their dicks. When event organizers refuse to be intimidated police pressure them claiming more fascists are on the way. None of the fascists are arrested. The dots aren’t hard to connect here.

Professor Van Boeschoten is a real find for the University of Volos. Greece doesn’t deserve people like her, she is a person with integrity, a rare thing in Greece. Though you make a good point that her opinions are tolerated – I have no explanation for that.

Nevertheless, before you paint Greece as the second heaven for academics recall what happened to Anastasia Karakasidou, who was hounded by nationalists and fascists and drummed out of the country for indirectly writing about “slavophones” in Greece.

Look at what happens to any Greek academic who speaks out on the Macedonian issue and the Macedonian minority. They are immediately silenced and stigmatized. Greece has the most cowardly, most ineffective academia of any country I know, Boeschoten is not the rule, but rather the exception, and she’s not Greek.

As usual the Greek media were hiding under a rock, too terrified to cover this innocuous Macedonian book launch. They also take their marching orders from their patrons in the government.

Put it all together. Greece has a cowardly media, silent academics, fascists and neo-Nazis roaming about freely, masturbating police officers and racist politicians. I’d say professor Friedman deserves a medal of courage for trying to promote tolerance and diversity in a famously problematic and xenophobic state like Greece. He has certainly earned my undying respect and gratitude.

These events are absolutely disgraceful. I’d still like to hear more about the dictionary itself, actually–the real focus of the event, and something I was looking forward to reading about. It is Greek-Mac *and* Mac-Greek, or just one way? Is Karadža the only author? Was Friedman a co-author? Where is Dămbeni? In Greece? In Macedonia? When did Karadža write this dictionary? Was the publisher there? Did the publisher have a statement? What exactly was this event–a regular book-promotion event, a press conference announcing the publication, what? The most remarkable thing about this event, it still seems to me (and it did to me when it was announced, before this disgraceful attack), was that it was happening at all: it certainly speaks to certain criticisms of Greece, after all, that such a dictionary can be published, promoted, and sold in Athens (a long way from Macedonia, after all). I’m sorry to see that this attack has distracted from the very fact that such a dictionary exists and can be promoted in Greece. Certainly this mere fact indicates that the Greek state is not preventing its publication, etc.

Reminds me a lot of the kinds of reactions I’ve seen to Noam Chomsky and others (Ali Abunimah, for example) promoting their books in the US (esp from aggressive Israel “supporters”).

And I have to agree that it’s unreasonable to think that the Foreign Ministry guards would leave their posts for anything but a national emergency. Their job is not to patrol, but to guard the Foreign Ministry. I’m quite sure that the guards at the Senate building in Washington would sit and watch demonstrators and counterdemonstrators beat themselves silly until the DC cops arrived: their brief is different, and they’d get into a lot of trouble if they left their posts to enter someone else’s jurisdiction. (Not all “cops” are the same, something civilians can easily forget.)

Uzunovski a few points that may get past your emotions:
a) If I see two far right groups fighting each other and accusing one another as traitor (Chryssi Avgi -> LAOS) or nazis (LAOS -> Chrissi Avgi) I call it as I see it. They both hate your guts but that doesn’t make them associated.
b) I’ve followed the news from reporting on the Greek pro-anarchist site athens.indymedia.org which is full of your supporters among the left and the part about the police sending everyone off based on a threat of further visits by far right goons was not reported anywhere. Instead the fact that the police apprehended all but 3 of the Chrissi Avgi members was reported. And the Chrissi Avgi site complains about the fact that they were made to get on their knees to be searched for weapons by the police. No weapons were found and none of the people at the press conference has sued them yet - with the videos it will be a slum dunk.
c) The fact that on all previous press conferences as well as the recent congress of Vinozhito the police presence was there and prevented these goons from harming anyone goes against your logic. Again one fails to see what the government has to gain from this negative publicity.
d) The police should have been pre-posted this time around (even if this would have been used as an excuse to claim intimidation) but at least I have yet to hear about Vinozhito complaining that they asked for police protection and were refused. BTW the police guard of the MFA cannot by regulations leave the premises - only ask for reinforcements.
e) Karakasidou was living in the USA while working on her thesis as a US university pursuing an academic career in the USA. I fail to see how she was driven out - she did not hold any appointment in a Greek institution. As Prof. Herzfeld, a personal mentor to her and someone your pals love to quote with respect to Greece wrote in a letter to Cambridge University Press:
“That attitude, and the decision that you are now predicating upon it, gratuitously insult both the Greek people and the Greek authorities, in a manner that repeats past injuries against them — a sorry tale that I have treated at length in the book I have published under your label. Let me remind you that successive Greek governments have generously supported symposia at which Professor Karakasidou and others whose views conceivably conflicted with official policy have presented their scholarly work; and let me also remind you that Professor Karakasidou, who has been given unrestricted access to state-supported archives in Greece, has been able to function over long periods of time there without violence or hindrance.”
f) Stigmatized? Sure their opinions are presented as anti-greek by most media. But silenced? Herakledis was not silenced - he still provokes with gusto. Skoulariki was not silenced. Giannoulopoulos was not silenced. Tsikelikis was not silenced. Margaritis was not silenced. I can go on and on. The fact is that the academic establishment in Greece is full of far leftists that have little societal following but are (as should be) allowed to have their say. So they are called traitors and they call their opposition fascists. And in the long run at least they change the opinions of a few of their students. Do not let your ignorance of the Greek academic circles diss your best allies in the country. And Riki’s case is not the only one. Vemund Aarbakke who has also been extremely critical of Greece was hired in the university of Thessaloniki (and continues to be critical of Greece) and Christian Voss is a candidate for the university of Athens (and you should know his views).
g) Sure most of the Greek media sees Vinozhito as a 5th column and prefers the patriotic card. Sure enough however this weekend the events will be covered in full detail in Greece’s 2nd most popular daily Eleftherotipia which very frequently writes on the subject always from your side of the argument.

1) The dictionary is not both ways. Vinozhito claims that the complementary dictionary is in the works.
2) Karatza is the only author and he left the rights in his will to Vinozhito
3) Friedman had nothing to do with writing the dictionary
4) Dămbeni was in the Kastoria prefecture in the Macedonian part of Greece.
5) Karatza wrote the dictionary as part of his work in RoM translating Greek literature.
6) The publisher is the Zora publishing house - essentially the Vinozhito party as can be easily ascertained by the fact that the addresses for the party and the publishing house are coincident. This is not unusual - Vinozhito’s former electoral partner in the 1990’s, the Organization for the Reconstruction of the Communist Party of Greece (OAKKE) has two publishing houses that co-exist with the organization - as well as the Anti-nazi initiative.
7) The press release from the party served as a publisher’s statement
8) This was the first press conference announcing the publication - which itself happened in 2008.
9) The Greek state has not prevented the publication of “The Greek anti-macedonian struggle” by Dimitri Lithoxoou, a founding member of Vinozhito, which as a book is far more provocative in how it challenges Greek positions than any dictionary.

@”deluded Albanian”: shumë mirë! Thanks for the very informed and informative details on this, and your much better analysis than Eric’s (who clearly doesn’t follow this whole issue in enough detail, and who isn’t aware of the many books published in Greece, in Greek, by Greeks about these issues which *disagree* with state policy–Η απαγορευμένη γλώσσα for example by Kostopoulos, who writes for one of the major national daily newspapers–Ελευθεροτυπία–not exactly an obscure journalist. Find me a journalist in Macedonia that speaks out regularly against the (historically ridiculous) Alexanderism of official Macedonian policy. Or a book published in Macedonian, by a Macedonian, which criticizes in great depth and with real feeling the official Skopje position on related issues (and yes, I can read both languages).

@Lubi: Gimme a break. Karakasidou wasn’t “drummed out of the country”–that’s pure fiction. She never was a professor in Greece (she’s a prof in the US), so she didn’t have a position to lose, and she continues to this day her work in the country (in Crete). Stop overblowing the ridiculous reaction of a couple of right-wing nutballs in Greece to her 1997 book.

And it’s worth remembering that this event wasn’t about Victor Friedman, who as far as I know didn’t have anything to do with this dictionary (please correct me if I’m wrong), but rather about the publication of a Greek-Mac dictionary! *That’s* something you wouldn’t find in true fascist states, so don’t try to tar Greece with that brush.

And by the way, don’t forget that the Macedonian party Vinozhito is a recognized, official party whose organizational activities are permitted by the government. Vaskopoulos’s complaints are too shrill, and inaccurate, and detract from the very real issues his party may address: far from being ignored, I saw him as part of an *hour*-long debate on Greek TV (not a well-moderated one, but still). Second, show me how many TV spots (and when) other tiny parties have managed to afford (including Makedoniko Metopo, Oikologoi, Drasi, etc: these are all bigger than Vinozhito and yet I haven’t seen any of their ads on Greek TV either: there are *42* parties up for election on Sunday, as far as I know). Until I see some comparative evidence, it’s just crying in the dark. The just cause of linguistic rights, etc, just isn’t served by these kinds of exaggerations, and reduce the credibility of his other statements to third parties.

@”deluded”: thanks! That’s more info about the actual dictionary than any of the press reports had. And so then one wonders (not really) about why Friedman was there at all–it was obviously just some political posturing in advance of Sunday’s elections.

And I know other professors, Greeks, at the Univ of Thessaloniki who are very sympathetic to various Macedonian issues (esp linguistic): it’s not just Boeschoten, or foreigners. But this fact doesn’t sit well with the “unified oppression” story that some people like to tell. It’s much easier to feel a generalized outrage against all Greeks…

Oh and Uzunovski - in case you think that the leftists of indymedia are in on it, here’s what your pal Abecedar from your forum writes on his blog:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=37428632&postID=7999030552692035642
Μετά την επίθεση των κλούβιων χρυσών αυγών η εκδήλωση συνεχίστηκε κανονικά.
After the attack of the rotten golden eggs (a pun on the name of the nazis) the event continued normally.
Nothing about the police driving them away with threats of further violence. I think you should contact Abecedar and have him correct his pro-greek ways…

1) Trust your mentor all you like. He doesn’t live in Greece either from what you write. And here are the 3 most recent attack from Chrissi Avgi towards LAOS:
http://xryshaygh.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/%ce%b4%ce%b5%ce%bd-%cf%87%cf%81%ce%b5%ce%b9%ce%ac%ce%b6%ce%b5%cf%84%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b1-%cf%80%ce%bf%cf%8d%ce%bc%ce%b5-%cf%84%ce%af%cf%80%ce%bf%cf%84%ce%b5-%ce%b5%ce%bc%ce%b5%ce%af%cf%82%e2%80%a6/http://xryshaygh.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b7-%cf%84%ce%b6%ce%b1%ce%b2%ce%ad%ce%bb%ce%bb%ce%b1-%ce%b3%ce%b9%ce%b1-%ce%ba%ce%b1%cf%81%ce%b1%cf%84%ce%b6%ce%b1%cf%86%ce%ad%cf%81%ce%b7-%c2%ab%ce%b4%ce%b9%ce%b1%cf%86%cf%89/http://xryshaygh.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/%ce%ba%ce%b1%cf%81%ce%b1%cf%84%ce%b6%ce%b1%cf%86%ce%ad%cf%81%ce%b7%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%af%ce%bd%ce%b1%ce%b9-%cf%8c%cf%84%ce%b9-%ce%b8%ce%ad%ce%bb%ce%b5%ce%b9-%ce%bb%ce%ad%ce%b5%ce%b9/
Similarities are not enough to claim associations - just like I can’t claim that OAKKE is associated with KKE-ΜΛ or ΜΛ-ΚΚΕ (yes two different parties in the far left that hate each other’s guts exist whose only difference in the name is whether marxist-leninist goes first or last) despite all of them arising out of the anti-revisionist communist pool.
2) The whole incident lasted less than 4 minutes as can be clearly seen in the video. How quickly do you expect riot control to take to arrive? As I said they should have been preposted even if in that case (as when Vinozhito had its congress) they would have been accused of intimidating potential visitors by their mere presence.
3) Anything like this event ends up in the CoE and the OSCE as well as the SD human rights reports (and they actually linger on for more than a year). The political impact of such negative reports is seen whenever Greece “needs a favour” in some other area (usually economic). But indeed sovereign nations are difficult to punish. Who has held the USA responsible for the very concrete and to this day continuing embargo on Cuba that has cost the latter billions? Or Guantanamo for that matter?
4) I realize that but in all fairness you could have pointed out that your advisor held Greece and Greeks in extremely low regard well before this incident.

Sorry for the links above - wordpress seems to like them better separated. In any case I don’t mean to increase traffic to their trash but illustrate a point.

One final piece of information for all interested readers - Uzunovski you’re going to love this and I’m surprised the video has not surfaced yet:
Kiriaki Malama and Fani Toupalgiki have shot a 30 minute documentary about Vasko Karatza - it was shown on the state owned ET3 channel (received nationally but based in Thessaloniki and focusing on Macedonia, Thrace and Epirus) on March 21st 2001. (As I said before those despicable Greeks are very incompetent). Since that time it has been shown very often during leftist and anti-racist festivals all over Greece. It is called “Εκτός ιστορίας - Βάσκο Καρατζάς” - “Outside History - Vasco Karatzas”. The late Karatzas was a NOF fighter during the Civil War - his brother Taso was executed by the Germans and is a very celebrated - by the communist party of Greece - communist hero:

http://www1.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=1271582&publDate=22/5/2002

Taso was one of the infamous “Akronafplia 27″ (an interesting side story of WWII) which included among others the Vlach Andreas Tzimas (central figure of the resistance and the civil war) and Andreas Tsipas (the only general secretary of the Communist Party of Greece from the minority - born in Patele/Agios Panteleimon).

@polysemic: I didn’t intend my words to be directed at you in particular; in fact, I was mostly responding to some of the other, earlier, posters. And trying to give a more balanced picture, and raise some other questions that people reading this blog (who may not be as informed on these issues) may find useful.

I’m happy we agree (along with most academic historians!) about the ridiculousness of the current Skopjan policy of promoting official Alexanderism. This amounts to cultural theft, and is plenty provocative, obviously. (The Greeks feel the same about Alexanderism as they feel about the Elgin (/Parthenon) marbles being appropriated by Lord Elgin and displayed in the British Museum. Read Christopher Hitchens’s book if you want to know more about that case.) But my point is, it’s easy to walk into a Greek bookstore and find books that talk at great length about the evils of past Greek govt policy, current policy, the Macedonian language, and the minority. Written by Greeks, published in Greek, sold and bought by Greeks. And while I understand that on a personal level, some Macedonians may admit that Alexanderism is crazy (which is entirely official and state-funded), I would really love to see a Macedonian writing in Macedonian (in a newspaper or a book) detailing how the ancient Macedonians were a tribe of Hellenes, that ancient Macedonian is at farthest remove an aunt of Attic (and possibly just a sister), historically speaking, etc. In the current political climate in Skopje, making such (unremarkable elsewhere) statements of fact would, it seems to me, be courageous on a par with the Greeks who take their country to task for its misguidedness (and like Chomsky’s critiques of US foreign policy: as Chomsky has written repeatedly, we bear more responsibility for our own actions and of those whom we can influence than for remote actors’, and hence it behooves us to begin our criticism close to home–there was nothing wrong with criticizing the horrible human rights’ abuses of the old Soviet Union [and there were plenty of US academics to do it], but it takes a lot more courage to speak up against policies you can more directly influence). So: easy task: prove me wrong. Show me that there are courageous Macedonian academics like some of the Greek academics speaking out. Better yet: show me a quote from Victor Friedman where he speaks out against this Alexanderism. Given his stature in Macedonian circles, one article of his on the topic would have much more influence than three dozen such articles written by Greeks, random Brits, Americans, etc (see the letter to Obama here http://vardaraxios.wordpress.com/2009/05/ for example). Instead, Friedman has written in vague terms about the provenance of the ancient language (while he knows full well what his colleague Eric Hamp thinks about it), instead of clearly stating what the linguistics shows (it was part of a closely related group of Hellenic language varieties: just how to draw the Stammbaum is all that’s really debated, and that not even that much, since there’s not enough material to have a good debate about).

On a related note: the annual conference on Greek linguistics held by the Greek linguistics dept at the Univ of Thessaloniki last month invited Suzanne Romaine (Oxford) to give one of the plenary lectures, which was very well attended. She spoke at length about linguistic human rights, minority language rights, etc, with extensive documentation and some detailed case studies–case studies of minorities in southern Africa! She didn’t mention *once* the minority languages in Greece or their situation (though she’s well aware of them). That’s just cowardice. And in fact in the too brief question period (she spoke too long), all the questions were in fact about minority languages (Romani, Vlach, Macedonian)–the Greeks had invited her here to hear what she had to say about the application of her knowledge to the situation here, and wanted to hear about it.

Wow, I can just say - wow. The Greeks are good. They managed to turn the discussion by 180 degrees and put us on the defensive. Well, it’s time to go back to what this discussion is all about - yet another case of Greek faschists attacking an event organized by the Macedonian minority.

From the Greek comments one would think that Greece is a democratic country, even though only one TV station decided to air the pre-election material of Vinozhito, and only at 6 AM. The others declined, saying that political commercials in another language are not allowed by law. Of course, there’s nothing in the law where this is mentioned and at the same time the parties of the Turkish minority is using Turkish in their commercials. But still, we appreciate that they acknowledge that Macedonian is a separate language, and not a so-called “idiom” that they’ve claimed so far.

Further examples of the fascism in the greek media: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuGPZM6jVpk&feature=channel_page

Look how the Greek media attacks a Macedonian priest by saying that he is a homosexual and a spy and that the police is coming to arrest him.

Actually, here is a link of a youtube channel that is full of examples like these, all taken from various TV stations over the years. Unfortunately, most have Macedonian subtitles, but I think you’ll understand what is being said.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=televizijasonce&view=videos

And to top it off with extracts from Victor Friedman’s interview which we are all familiar with. http://www.balkanalysis.com/2008/12/14/victor-friedman-on-macedonia-the-balkanalysiscom-interview/

“The generation that suffered during the Greek Civil War (1946-49) however, is still alive. The ones who are still alive often do not want to tell their stories because they are afraid or the memories are too painful. Even for curious foreigners, if you go to Greece to do research on Macedonian, you run the risk that the police will take your tapes, destroy them, and kick you out for expressing an interest in what is still a taboo topic for them.

CD: Really! Are there some examples?

VF: Yes, and it happened to a colleague of mine who was doing dissertation research in a village whose name I will omit to protect the inhabitants.

CD: aha, the village of… near Kastoria?

VF: Yes, and precisely for this reason it is one of the most interesting Macedonian dialects, because it is the most southwestern Macedonian dialect. It is transitional between eastern and western types of Macedonian. And the Greek police confiscated the tapes of this linguist and interfered with his research. However, he did finish his dissertation on this dialect. In fact, in his introduction, he made a point of thanking the Greek police for teaching him to always keep backup tapes!

CD: Ha! So with all of this intimidation, not to mention the journalist arrests we saw recently, what are the Greeks so afraid of?

VF: They‚Äôre incredibly insecure. No, they‚Äôre not just insecure. They have a linguistic ideology that insists on wiping out all other languages. This is an old ideology. It is the origins of the term barbarian. Think about it.”

And a 1994 human rights watch report. - http://books.google.com/books?id=JxCnAHCCuxYC&pg=PA4&dq=national+geographic+macedonia&as_brr=1&ei=zKHpSajcK5aQyAT47P2nDg#PPP7,M1

Што си зготвил тоа ќе си сркаш.

Athens started the anti-macedonian struggle. Provoking reaction. Now that’s even talked about the slightest possibility of connection of contemporary Macedonian to ancient Macedonian. A notion unimaginable just 15 years ago.

The good thing is all those claims will go through scientific scrutiny and we’ll get the answers. The only problem is why someone tries to connect the history with the right of the individual to self-declare itself…

Interesting, short discussion can be found here:
http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/macedonia-from-bad-to-worse/

(How can you spot an Athenian here? He never ever uses the word Macedonian to describe my language or nation. Never :)

The fact that a Macedonian/Greek dictionary is able to cause such an eruption in “Greece” is an irony indeed, for the fact the MACEDONIAN language has roots in today’s Macedonia, including those parts occupied by Greece, Aegean (Belomorsko Makedonija) and Pirin Macedonia (Bulgarian occupied) as well as the Republic of Macedonia. To see examples of proto Macedonian/ Slavic language, see;

http://www.unet.com.mk/ancient-macedonians/

Vasil Iljov’s paleographic and paleolinguistic research reveals signs on rocks which are actual letters of an old proto Slav phonetic alphabet that can be deciphered using today’s standardised Macedonian language. Acc. to Iljov, not one but two phonetic alphabets have been discovered. One was known as the common alphabet used by the general public and the other was known as the secret alphabet used for religious and ceremonial purposes.

@A deluded Albanian: “the part about the police sending everyone off based on a threat of further visits by far right goons was not reported anywhere”

Who would report it? Event organizers noted Greek media boycotts Macedonian events. It would be best to verify this with eyewitnesses rather than insinuate it’s untrue.

———-

@A deluded Albanian: “Instead the fact that the police apprehended all but 3 of the Chrissi Avgi members was reported. And the Chrissi Avgi site complains about the fact that they were made to get on their knees to be searched for weapons by the police. No weapons were found and none of the people at the press conference has sued them yet - with the videos it will be a slum dunk.”

Here is a slightly updated video of the incident. In the video you can see the fascists strolling past Greek police as they leave the building. Police barely took notice of them, let alone “apprehended” them. Are there any new pictures for “optics”?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L40kQfnFuik

If anyone in attendance sues these Xrisi Avgi thugs their lives will probably be turned into a living hell, as Karakasidou’s was.

———-

@A deluded Albanian: “Again one fails to see what the government has to gain from this negative publicity.”

Is this a straw man? Since when has the Greek government concerned itself with the negative repercussions of its racist behaviour?

Just this year Gay McDougall of the United Nations asked the Greek government to stop its policy of denying the existence of minorities. A week hadn’t passed after McDougall’s report before the Greek foreign minister made a visit to Voden in Aegean Macedonia to declare there were no ethnic minorities in Greece.

Greece couldn’t care less, it knows the European Union has endless tolerance for Greece’s extreme racism.

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@A deluded Albanian: “The police should have been pre-posted this time around (even if this would have been used as an excuse to claim intimidation) but at least I have yet to hear about Vinozhito complaining that they asked for police protection and were refused.”

I can’t speak for the event organizers as I wasn’t there, but I don’t believe they were looking for this provocation. To be honest, if I were throwing a book launch in the middle of Athens, adjacent to the foreign ministry surrounded by police, I wouldn’t book a police presence either.

Should they expect Greek fascists to show up when they promote their cookbook too? Not much breathing room there for freedom of expression.

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@A deluded Albanian: “BTW the police guard of the MFA cannot by regulations leave the premises - only ask for reinforcements.”

Put it into context, where else in the Western World could a gaggle of large fascists, dressed in black clothing and helmets walk by the police security of the foreign ministry, enter the building behind them, cause an incident, and then stroll off again past the police. Your claim beggars belief.

Victor Friedman stated in his interview the only police he saw were the ones outside. Where were the reinforcements, where was anyone? The cops were either sleeping on the job, or told to lay low.

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@A deluded Albanian: e) “Karakasidou was living in the USA while working on her thesis as a US university pursuing an academic career in the USA. I fail to see how she was driven out”

She was driven out because she didn’t want to take the abuse anymore. People hounding her, calling her a traitor, bragging they would rape her, etc. She has lain low since but she is a much wiser woman now, especially about Macedonians and minorities in general.

Victor Friedman strikes me as much wiser now too - and he was already very wise to begin with. I understand this site is run by one of Victor’s students - they are very lucky indeed.

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@A deluded Albanian: “Stigmatized? Sure their opinions are presented as anti-greek by most media. But silenced?”

The only person I know who can withstand the intense stigmatization - and endless law suits - thrown at activists and scholars, is Panayote Dimitras, who is reviled in the country. He is not silenced, but that’s a testament to his integrity, not of the Greek state’s tolerance. Most academics who want to speak out do so once then get their wings clipped.

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@A deluded Albanian:4) “Dambeni was in the Kastoria prefecture in the Macedonian part of Greece.”

What do you mean Karadza’s village “was” in the Kostur prefecture? Where is it now?

@A deluded Albanian: “The Greek state has not prevented the publication of “The Greek anti-macedonian struggle” by Dimitri Lithoxoou, a founding member of Vinozhito, which as a book is far more provocative in how it challenges Greek positions than any dictionary.”

Where were the fascists for Lithoxoou - if his book was “far more provocative,” why didn’t they show up? A dictionary isn’t “provocative”, you’d have to fit yourself through the eye of a needle to pretend it is.

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@A deluded Albanian: “Oh and Uzunovski - in case you think that the leftists of indymedia are in on it, here’s what your pal Abecedar from your forum writes on his blog: After the attack of the rotten golden eggs (a pun on the name of the nazis) the event continued normally.”

I can’t vouch for which information is correct, I wasn’t there nor were you. I posted the information that was released. Again, it’s best to check with witnesses rather than relying on secondary sources.

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@A deluded Albanian: “I realize that but in all fairness you could have pointed out that your advisor held Greece and Greeks in extremely low regard well before this incident.”

Don’t pretend to be naive. Victor Friedman is a very intelligent man. Why do you think he might hold Greece in low regard?

Do you think it might have anything to do with Greek society’s virulent anti-Semitism and its extreme intolerance and racism? I too hold Greece in low regard, but I don’t do it out of racism I do it based on Greece’s behaviour.

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@A deluded Albanian: “One final piece of information for all interested readers - Uzunovski you’re going to love this and I’m surprised the video has not surfaced yet: Kiriaki Malama and Fani Toupalgiki have shot a 30 minute documentary about Vasko Karatza …”

That’s good to know but how does that change the facts of this incident, or the extremely racist behaviour endured by the ethnic Macedonians in Greece - who officially don’t exist and must be kept invisible as they are forcibly assimilated?

Do you think Ouranio Toxo might be able to get the same kind of coverage - and not in the usual “they are traitors, spies for skopia” kind of way?

Deluded Albanian, if you’re going to address me by my formal name, then put yours out there as well. You can use your Arvanite name, if you can remember it, or your new Greek name.

US/Mac Friend writes: “I’m happy we agree (along with most academic historians!) about the ridiculousness of the current Skopjan policy of promoting official Alexanderism. This amounts to cultural theft, and is plenty provocative, obviously.”

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Why do you make reference to a “Skopjan policy” then misrepresent yourself as a “US/Mac Friend”.

Modern Macedonians have as much right as anyone else in the region to claim the ancient Macedonians.

The so-called “Slavic-speaking” Macedonians can be traced back to the mid-500s AD - in Macedonia. That’s 1500 years in the land. Alexander the Great may have died in the 4th century BC, but the rest of the Macedonians didn’t.

Nor did the nameless “Slavs” exterminate all the indigenous populations they found in the area. They assimilated them, or vice versa, with a Slavic language dominating.

On the other hand, Aegean Macedonia, only captured by Greece through an act of war in 1913, was ethnically cleansed, then repopulated by various Christian groups from Asia Minor and the Black Sea.

A full 50% and probably more, of today’s “Greeks” living in Aegean Macedonia are foreigners having only arrived or been transplanted there in the last 80 years. How do these people have a greater claim, nay, a monopoly, on Alexander the Great, and the Macedonians of 1500 years are merely “Slavs”?

What utter nonsense. I’m not aware of any reputable scholar who claims that today’s Greeks are the descendants of Alexander the Great.